Van Gogh

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Posts by Van Gogh

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  54

  So, why did I meet with the elders?

  by lola28 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is my explanation as to why i met with the elders today.

  when i agreed to meet with the elders last week i had made up my mind to just go in and be honest with them.

  i was going to tell the elders that i no longer believed this to be the truth, and then i was just going to walk away.

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  Van Gogh

  Daystar said:
  "If a person remains true to themselves, assuming they know themselves in the first place, then the path they take is an honourable one."
  Granted and well said - as I said: there is a lot to be said for your comment.
  However, we have a natural desire to be seen or acknowledged by OTHERS, the ones we hold in high regard, for being true to ourselves and being honorable. As far as those others are concerned, our exit is considered to be far from honorable. That is the whole problem here.
  VG
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  47

  Shunning and Friendship...two different things.

  by gumby in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this thread is started as a result of our friend lola's thread about meeting with elders and why.. it was mentioned by our poster that many would see folly in worrying about offending the ladies that helped her and that they were not true friends since they would shun her were she dfed.. is this what many of you think?.

  do you think if family or friends shun you after you are dfed or daed they are not "true friends"?.

  well i totally disagree.. does a mother or father who lets their child die due to refusing a blood transfusion.....not love their child?

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  Van Gogh

  There is something to be said for both views.
  
  For example I have recently seen the harshness of the way in which 10-year old cousins within my family are made to avoid each other as “bad association” – by their PO granddaddy (my uncle). THIS IS DISTURBING WRONGDOING THAT IS CASUALLY PERPATRATED. Are jdubs fully aware of the destruction they are causing?
  Also, my pioneering cousin was disfellowshipped around 1970 for having premarital sex with the man she eventually married and had children with. She was automatically ostracized by our large JW family ever since. Although our large JW family was never loving and close, only recently do I fully realize the gravity of this INHUMANE INJUSTICE in the name of God.
  
  But despite this, I find Gumby’s viewpoint a valid one.
  
  Love has many manifestations – from absolute love to rational loyalty.
  These each manifest themselves to varying degrees – from absolute pureness to complete conditionality.
  In all of those different degrees it is tested in different ways.
  This process takes place from at least two different perspectives.
  It is possible for both to feel betrayed at the same time.
  It is possible for both to feel guilty at the same time.
  Love can be shown in a way that is not perceived as such: it is called detachment.
  
  My exJW cousin’s 22 year old daughter was not raised by him as a JW. Yet, due to family connections she (this is no bitter exaggeration) was love-bombed and brainwashed into the JW system. She consequently quit the college her dad/my cousin had invested a lot of money in. She’s gone into a state of social security inertia, oversleeping most of the time before she goes into the afternoon field service that will earn her the paradise jackpot for free. Her dad/my cousin is demonized by her and her cong for his criticism of her. So he told her to pack her suitcase a go live with her spiritual benefactors. Now she is told not to divulge her address to her dad. My cousin dearly loves his daughter – she is a victim. Yet, he knows that, considering his daughters personality and predisposition in this particular case, the only way she’ll see the error of her ways is to learn the hard way. But I must admit that I’ve seen him hug her, and seen her letting him hug her, and at one time we all even had a good laugh at the absurdity of the situation when we dropped her off at her “secret address”.
  So in instances of “unconditional love” (love in my opinion ultimately never is completely unconditional, except for that of a Christ perhaps?) love can be separated from the kind of behavior that is perceived to be loving, but is not, and be accompanied by the kind of behavior that can be perceived as hateful, but is in fact an act of unconditional love.
  VG
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  54

  So, why did I meet with the elders?

  by lola28 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is my explanation as to why i met with the elders today.

  when i agreed to meet with the elders last week i had made up my mind to just go in and be honest with them.

  i was going to tell the elders that i no longer believed this to be the truth, and then i was just going to walk away.

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  Van Gogh

  This above all: to thine own self be true,
  
  And it must follow, as the night the day,
  
  Thou canst not then be false to any man.
  
  Farewell; my blessing season this in thee!

  There is a lot to be said for the above... but there are no universal answers and there is no honorable way out.

  Personally, I would love to make a statement by DAing - closure for myself, but just blurting it out could also be an easy way out. I sense it would not give satisfaction. Swallowing the truth can make you nauseous and I hope I will find your courage to do the same thing when it will be my turn soon.

  VG
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  43

  Read some responses of those that attended a jw funeral talk........

  by troubled mind in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  if witnesses really think their version of a funeral talk is a good way to give a witness ...think again.

  ...oh yea i also was really pissed how your funeral turned out...while i was sitting there ...kept sayin to each other how much we hated it and how pissed we were that he was sayin all that shit.. .

  i miss you so much.

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  Van Gogh

  I have heard some really good ones...

  and some bad ones in my life: JW doctrine does not take death very seriously, so consolation doen't rank all that high. The funeral talk one of my uncles - the black sheep of the family, a colorful character - got two years ago was a recruitment talk like no other; in the talk he was named and referred to where absolutely necessary, but otherwise he didn't really figure in it. I remember looking around me for obvious signs of indignation in peoples faces and whispered some remarks - nobody seemed to notice.

  In my experience dub funerals are also often used by the elder establishment as a political instrument.

  An old and faithful MS died after many risky bloodless operations. His children were all exJWs and all wanted to make a personal contribution with a personal speech. One son apparently had had premarital sex with the woman he married afterwards... 25 years ago, and was disfellowshipped for it at the time. The sister/wife of the MS was leaned on heavily by the body of elders not to allow the personal input but she did not give in. Consequently, the funeral was boycotted and the cong was admonished not to attend the funeral. Me and a few others attended. A disgraced ex-elder friend of the family held a biblically consoling talk in the end but was too afraid to say a prayer for fear of being disfellowshipped for it. The cong and all the elders did go to the farewell-condolence ceremony at the funeral home the day before as they allowed this. The funny thing is that an elder from another cong was seen by many there talking amicably to the DFed guy. The deceased MS was hated by the PO who orchestrated the boycott. It shows how those in control apply the rules whenever it suits them.

  Shortly afterwards we had a couple more funerals... all involving the same PO.

  This time an old sister's funeral was boycotted by her NON-JW and fundi-Christian family who demonstratively stood outside. After the soulless JW funeral talk the whole crowd of unbelievers ventured in. But the PO and his wife ostensibly hurried out because the deceased sister's son who WAS a JW commenced with a short speech for the unbelievers in order to explain to them how his mother's blood refusal had not been the actual cause of her demise... Again the funny thing is that another local elder who was related to the deceased remained in the audience.

  At another funeral of a well-liked character/brother, the son of the deceased, a known apostate living abroad, was allowed to speech on tape. The approving PO again used his "discretion" here.

  At another funeral of an old faithful sister, her DAed son WAS allowed to speech in person... before the funeral talk, held by a powerful friend of the old sister: the CO. The PO in question went along with this one of course. (The DAed son this time walked out before the COs talk.)

  A brother in a neighboring cong was stabbed to death by his young pregnant wife, a sister, after he apparently continued his affair with an even younger girl. This time the cong was more or less summoned on several occasions to ATTEND the funeral in as large a number as possible... sanctioned by the same PO: an example needed to be set (show needed to be put on) since a large part of the bereaved family were Pentecostals... I didn't attend that one.

  Now that I've written this, I realize that perhaps it was not such a bad thing after all that my own parents, all those 27 years ago, were not deemed worthy of a funeral talk after having slaved away faithfully for many years until they gave way under the unbearable load. My mum killed herself just before my DFed dad self-destructed. Fortunately no fallacies were spoken over their dead bodies.

  VG
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  56

  Your prayers and thoughts for Randy!

  by Atlantis in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i realize that randy watters is not the type of person to want to worry others, especially when it come to his own health.

  and i also realize that randy might want to kick me in the backsides for posting this little message.

  thats ok, i'll even buy him a new set of boots to kick me with, but for right now if we could take a few moments to send our prayers, thoughts, and perhaps ecards for randy's swift recovery, then i know that randy would certainly appreciate it .dear friends of randy, due to some complications from a pain medication randy was using during an attack of his crohn's disease last week, he became seriously dehydrated and was hospitalized this past thursday, april 13th.

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  Van Gogh

  Sorry to digress... but from all the many sick or depressed members of my (now former) cong I know of at least three that have some form of IBD.
  I know of at least two other sis undergoing their "crisis of conscience" that are suffering severely from a dilapidating form of IBD.
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  45

  I know there's bigger news

  by cyd0099 in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  but my girlfriend dumped me last night.

  she lost the spark she had for me she said...

  i am alone again and i could use a hug.

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  Van Gogh

  ((((((hugs))))))
  
  VG
  (of the "sparkless"-and-subsequently-still-unsettled slave class)
• 
  42

  I WENT TO CHURCH THIS MORNING....

  by Mary in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  after the distastful and depression memorial at the kingdom hall last wednesday night, i guess i just felt the need to go somewhere else this morning for easter so i drove around.......i was going to go to the presbyterian church but the service wasn't untill 11:00am....ditto for the lutheran and united churches too, so i ended up going to the catholic church (of all places!

  ) because the service started at 9:30am.

  never been to a catholic service before, (except for one wedding and one funeral years ago).

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  Van Gogh

  LOLLLLLL!!!!!!!

  Hmmm.......nobody asked me if I were a Catholic..can you imagine their faces if I had admitted "...uh no, I'm just an inactive Jehovah's Witness.."

  Can you imagine the dub faces if you'd admit to having taken communion...
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  31

  need data

  by mathead in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i am currently doing a mathematical analysis on the remnant population.

  (the number of partakers left).

  i need the number of remnant for the last 15 years, preferably from the "year book" and the average age of the remnant in 2006. my initial work shows the population figures are tampered with.. i think i can pinpoint what the wts is doing here and how they come up with the figures they do.. thanks for any help here

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  Van Gogh

  the WTS stance on that is the annointed both on earth and in heaven can not sin

  This not correct. The WTS' stance is that they CAN sin - at least on earth. That is what the replacement theory is based upon in the first place. The "math" of your reasoning is way off.

  have shitloads who fall away only to be replaced by ones of much younger and less years of loyal devotion and integrity

  Even with small numbers falling away, if this has been going on for the last 130 years or so, the average age has to be adjusted for all those years and should be set lower than 85 (some of the younger replacements will have sinned or will sin in future and will consequently have been replaced or need to be replaced in future).
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  56

  Your prayers and thoughts for Randy!

  by Atlantis in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i realize that randy watters is not the type of person to want to worry others, especially when it come to his own health.

  and i also realize that randy might want to kick me in the backsides for posting this little message.

  thats ok, i'll even buy him a new set of boots to kick me with, but for right now if we could take a few moments to send our prayers, thoughts, and perhaps ecards for randy's swift recovery, then i know that randy would certainly appreciate it .dear friends of randy, due to some complications from a pain medication randy was using during an attack of his crohn's disease last week, he became seriously dehydrated and was hospitalized this past thursday, april 13th.

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  Van Gogh

  Dear Randy,
  
  May your contribution to so many wounded, including myself, on their road to recovery and healing, be restituted by speedy progress on your own road to recovery.
  As we progress on life's road, we continue to be bewildered by whatever spiritual, mental or physical misfortunes fate has (had) in store for us.
  But things can at least make some sort of sense if they cause us to draw closer in a newfound bond of brother/sisterhood.
  It is from this sense of love, respect and appreciation as well that I wish you well.
  
  VG
• 
  324

  RICHIE RED ALERT

  by RichieRich in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was on the phone speaking with verne thoren, presiding overseer of the willow springs, nc congregation of jehovah's witnesses.

  he tells me he knows of my possesssion of the flock book.

  he knows of my involvement on this site.

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  Van Gogh

  If you're out at 17, your first bithday you'll get to celebrate will be your 18th!